More on the Yankees
So, my last post was a little congratulatory quip to the New York Yankees, for winning their 27th World Series Championship. (Their 27th; I know, it’s a lot!) In the title of that post, I accidentally juxtaposed two characters in my haste to get the thing online, and I was quickly corrected by Yankee haters who likely enjoyed correcting me in the worldwide forum that is the Intertubes. Meow.
That same evening — you know, the one where the Yankees WON THE WORLD SERIES — I guess I also posted a little congratulatory quip on my Facebook status, which became a lightning rod for a discussion on the Yankees, baseball payrolls, unfairness, weah, weah weah.
Some great arguments from both sides of the aisle are contained in that thread, and it has had me thinking. Thanks everyone. Still, my overwhelming directive to everyone is to fucking get over it.
I guess my beef with the Yankee haters can be summed up thusly: Yankee haters categorize this whole thing as a problem with the Yankees (or they call them cheaters, or fags, or some other such juvenile nonsense); intelligent Yankee fans call it a problem with the rules (which it most certainly is, but don’t blame the Yankees for trying to win with any means allowed). Idiotic Yankee fans — which are a huge problem in American society, I agree — just say things like “Yankees number one, fuck you”, and this definitely gets in the way of clear discourse.
And that’s why I want to share two excellent pieces I read today that also try to address the Problem with Baseball, from both sides. First up, a pitch for the pinstripes, from none other than John Gruber, who, as a Macintosh zealot already knows a thing or two about making good points amidst a tidal wave of ignorance:
And next up, the flip side which makes all the points my frend Johnny Q makes on my Facebook page, but also throws out some real stretches. (This latter link comes to you by way of John Gruber’s website, BTW.)
Joe Posnanski - The Yankees Payroll
Enjoy. Spring training seems like a long ways off.
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8 comments
That Joe Posnanski list is pure crud. Example of other pure crud:
1. National Socialist Party (Nazis) = socialism (it’s right there in the name!!!)
2. Nazis had healthcare
3. Obama wants healthcare
4. Obama is a Nazi
Posnanski, writes:
“E. Because nobody really listens, people donât talk about the Yankees spending much more money than any other team to win games.”
He would be absolutely right except for the fact he is 100% wrong. That’s all anybody talks about. ESPN was talking about it THE MORNING AFTER THEY WON THE WS. The champagne wasn’t mopped off the floor yet.
It seems to bother some folks a lot when the Yankees win with their huge payroll but it does not seem to bother these same folks when the RS win with their huge payroll. Or when the Mets outspend everybody in their division and finish just barely above the Nats. Or when the Yankees send boatloads of luxury tax money to teams that should be contracted and the owners pocket the money and trade off all their homegrown players.
Hypocrisy thy name is Yankee hater.
Perry,
ESPN is going to discuss the Yankee Payroll because it’s a huge advantage they have over every team in baseball. If you were going to cover a race, and a runner had a 40 yard head start, then when the runner wins it would be natural to bring up that he had a head start.
You bring up the Red Sox Payroll. If you took the Red Sox payroll ($122 million) and added the ENTIRE Twins roster ($68 million) you would still have enough money ($16 million) for Albert Pujols.
The Yankees are in the bigget city, with the most tradition, with the biggest t.v. contract, $1.5 Billion dollar publicly financed stadium and earn $100 million more than the next closest team. So it’s natural that this advantage would upset people and be brought into the discussion.
Now the Yankees are only playing by the rules which allow a team to expolit their wealth, but every other team would do exactly the same thing if they had the advantage. The real problem is that baseball is currently opperating under a terribly flawed system. Also, baseball is the only sport exempt from Anti-Trust violations so a team like the Royals can’t just move into New Jersey and compete against the Yankees.
I think the real dislike/anger comes out when people who are marginal Yankee fans start wearing the jackets and caps and start pounding their chest yelling, “were number 1”. People who couldn’t tell you the difference between Mickey Mouse and Mickey Rivers.
And then there is a general lake of acknowledgement by the Yankee fan base that they’ve had an enormous advantage throuout their history. Also, There is this tendency to exaggerate and portray the Yankee Franchise as a beacon of nobility/courage while whitewashing large portions of their history.
1-In the pre amateur draft (1965) baseball world, The Yankees had an enormous economic advantage when signing minor league players like Dimaggio and Mantle. Their was no draft so a team could sign whomever they wanted so the Yankees were able to sign a lot of players because of their wealth.
2-In the late 50’s the the Yankees got into a conspiracy with the K.C. Athlectics owner Arnold Johnson, where Johnson actually owned part of Yankee Stadium. Johnson basically gave the Yankees: Maris, C. Boyer, Bauer, Larsen and Terry. Most of their success in the 50’s early 60’s was sustained with this arangement.
3-The Yankees were one of the last teams to integrate and their G.M. George Weiss was an flat-out racist.
4-Somehow a convicted felon twice suspended owner has been turned into a saint/martyr. It’s as if people have forgotten about Howard Spira and the 100 of horrible things Steinbrenner did during his tenure.
If you take the two time periods when baseball had a level playing field: 1965-1975-Amateur Draft/pre free agentcy), 1986-early 90’s-Collusion 1,2,3) The Yankees never made the playoffs and were a mediocre team.
Suck it John, Yankees #1!
Seriously, let me just respond to a few points. As usual, you make great points, but I have a few comments:
First off, somewhere in all of that, you basically agree that every other owner would do the same if in the same financial position. Thank you.
Next up, I agree the October/November “fans” that emerge from whatever post season hibernation their team has imposed on them is annoying. Again, the “fans” of the Yankees are not the only species; in Boulder, I never saw so much Rockies purple as I did in 2007 — and I haven’t since. But I don’t think that’s much reason to hate on a team, that’s just general human assholery which, if you read my website, you will see is commonplace everywhere.
George Weiss a racist? Oh my! So was every other white dude at Yale at the time. So was John McGraw. So were, and so are, so many. The fact that the Yankees were one of the last teams to desegregate means nothing in the context of our conversation anyway, and is tantamount to an ad hominem attack on the organization (and I can’t believe I’m essentially defending racism here, this is what Yankee hating has wrought). It’s like dissing the last branch of the armed forces to desegregate. Come on.
No one has forgotten about Spira or Steinbrenner. I hate George Steinbrenner and everyone in the Yankee organization knows he’s an asshole. This is not disputed anywhere except in public by people who cash his checks, or people who don’t know any better. I would love to see a lovable Yankee owner, and I believe it could have happened, but it didn’t in my lifetime. Shit happens.
In terms of the courage angle, I would argue that the guy in the box knows full well he’s on the best team and has an advantage in the sense that he’s surrounded by teammates that are statistically better, on the whole, than the teammates of his opponent about to throw the ball. Lord knows, if this piddly little website can devote and draw so much attention to arguing about this, then the full weight of the nation’s expectations must at least be tapping on the shoulders of the Yankee in the batter’s box. And when they overcome this weight and do what is arguably the hardest thing in all of pro sports, yeah I’d say that takes some courage and I guess that’s why I still get a thrill when the Yankees win.
So, suck it.
Oh boy! Here we go again!
>>ESPN is going to discuss the Yankee Payroll because itâs a huge advantage they have over every team in baseball.
Right. So the lead story THE MORNING AFTER the Yankees win the WS, is “Yankees ruining baseball by buying WS.” Fair and balanced as Fox. Here in New England, we call ESPN the Red Sox Channel.
>>You bring up the Red Sox Payroll.
Why do you keep comparing the RS to payroll to the Yankees? We’ve been though this on FB. The RS only have to win the wild card and get into the post season. They can then use their massive salary advantage to dominate the other teams. Except the Yankees, of course. The Yankees dominated the RS in 2004 due to THEIR massive salary advantage. Then, they dominated the lowly Marlins in 2003 and the Indians 2007. The Yankees really need to be broken up. But I digress. Let’s get back to the poor Red Sox:
The 2007 World Champion Boston Red Sox versus the Colorado Rockies…â¨
07 Boston Red Sox Payroll: $143,026,214â¨
07 Colorado Rockies Payroll: $54,424,000
And now I find out that the RS is going to spend $3M next year for a back up catcher/mascot. How can small market teams compete with that???
>>I think the real dislike/anger comes out when people who are marginal Yankee fans start wearing the jackets and caps and start pounding their chest yelling, âwere number 1â.
Right. Because only the Yankees have douche bag fans. All the “Jeter swallows” signs at Fenway are from the classiest fans in the world.
And you wanna talk conspiracy? An officer of the Boston Red Sox investigating steroids in the Yankee clubhouse: now that is one huge ass conspiracy.
Wow, so many points. Let me address Rob first.
Yes, most fans come out of the “wood work” when a team wins, but the sheer number and the level of “Douchebaggery” is quite unique when it comes to a large portion of Yankee fans.
As far as George Weiss and John Mcgraw…You can’t be serious??? First off, Mcgraw and Weiss weren’t contemporaries and McGraw by the standards of an early 20th century baseball man was quite progressive. He attempted to sign a black player, he often played black teams, and he went to negro league games. When he died they found a list of all the black players he wanted to sign but couldn’t.
George Weiss was a racist and wanted to keep the Yankees white. He passed on Willie Mays and Ernie Banks among other black players. And the Yankees didn’t have a black player reach 450 P.A.âs until 1959. One of the big reasons the Yankees struggled in the mid-60’s-Early 70’s was their reluctance to sign black/latino players.
The Weiss point was made in response to the overwrought and excessive way the team portrays itself with the flags, patriotic songs, flying eagles, 76 trombones, and Truth, Justice and the American-Way. If you go out of your way to portray your organization as a beacon of liberty/freedom/courage and then fail to point out the K.C. Athletic story/or the George Weiss era, then youâre setting yourself up to be criticized. Also the Yankees fail to acknowlege or gloss over these periods in their history.
The âarmed forces: last to desegregateâ is not analogous to this situation. Truman desegregated the armed forces by an executive order, itâs not like the commissioner of baseball issued an order saying, âTeams must desegregate by 1950 or elseâ. It was a decision that was left up to the teams and the Yankees made a conscious decision not to have a full-time black player until the early 1960âs.
As far as Steinbrenner, my criticism was levied against George for the kind of âAmnesiaâ people have about him. Suddenly Steinbrenner became a martyr/saint with chants of âletâs win one for Georgeâ or âWe did this for Georgeâ with total disregard for his past.
It always surprises me in a sense that Yankee fans are so thin-skinned when it comes to criticism. Like it or not, you make a Faustian bargain when you become a Yankee fan. Yes you will have the 27 rings, $1.5 billion dollar palace, Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio and Mantle, and all the history but you will be criticized and your team will be perceived like Darth Vader and the imperial army by the rest of the baseball world.
In an ironic twist the Yankees played the theme used by the Rebel alliance from Star Wars when introducing their team during the World Series. Again itâs this perception of the Rebel/Maverick/Underdog persona that aggravates people. You canât portray yourselves as rebels when your owner is Emperor Palpatine.
Yankee fans always seem shocked with the amounts of people that dislike their team. Seriously the Yankees are going to make a lot of enemies just for the sheer volume of Championships they won. Whether you root for the Yankees, Cowboys, Celtics, Lakers, youâre going to get a lot of people that will dislike your team. But the Yankees operate on a whole different level. No team out of the 120 odd professional sports teams has the kind of economic/competitive advantage the Yankees have. But the Yankee hatred is on a whole other level than say the Cowboy hatred.
Like I said, the Yankees start a race with a 40 yard head start and are surprised when someone criticizes them when they win.
You didnât really make a point about ESPN talking about the Yankee Payroll. When you your payroll is $70 million dollars more than the next team and you have $700 million dollars wrapped up in 4 players, then yes your payroll will be brought up.
The Red Sox payroll was brought up because they are often lumped in together with the Yankees as basically the same thing which is incorrect. There is about a $90 million dollar payroll gap between the two teams. Like I said you take the Red Sox ADD the ENTIRE Twins Roster and still have enough money to have Albert Pujols and that would equal the Yankees payroll.
Your point about the Red Sox/Rockies is a valid point. Both the Red Sox and Cubs play the underdog role which is B.S., theyâre large market teams. But the Red Sox and Cubs still arenât the Yankees, theyâre on the third level in Baseball:
1-Yankees-on their own level
2-Mets/Dodgers/Angels
3-Cubs, Red Sox, Phillies, and Braves.
Yankees donât have the only âDouchebagâ fans, but they have more and theyâre louder and more obnoxious.
So youâre implying that Senator George Mitchell was employed by the Boston Red Sox to fabricate information about Steroid use by the New York Yankees.
As long as you brought up the 2000 Yankees, WS#26, letâs remember that 9 members of that team appeared on the Mitchell report. The 2000 LCS MVP, David Justice, appeared on that list. 4 out of the 5 games started were started by pitchers on the Mitchell Report. 3/5 of their starting rotation was on that list. They donât even get out of the LCS without Clemens steroid induced performance against the Mariners.
>>So you’re implying that Senator George Mitchell was employed by the Boston Red Sox to fabricate information about Steroid use by the New York Yankees.
Your chronology and cause/effect are way off. FACT: he was hired by Selig to investigate BB while he was an officer of the Red Sox. Can you say conflict of interest? Do you know the history of Selig’s interference in Henry buying the Sox? Do you honestly believe that in the entire country there was no qualified investigator to be found that WAS NOT an employee of the Red Sox?
>>They don’t even get out of the LCS without Clemens steroid induced performance against the Mariners.
Surely you jest! Can you say Manny and Papi? both. on. the. juice. Let’s see? How may WS would the RS would have won in the last 90 years without Milkshake Papi and Estrogen Manny? Oh, that’s right. ZERO. But let’s talk about how steroids have helped the the Yankees cheat baseball instead.
>>ESPN comments
That was not even a good try.
Your view of the situation is at best myopic, at worst willfully obtuse. I think we can stick a fork in this now.
I am tired already of this thread. John I already said you made good points. I disagree with some, and with most of your retorts to my last comment.
I can clearly see that my WordPress MySQL database needs to be converted from Latin sooner than later because the “smartquotes” you and Perry keep posting here are getting all fucked up. And this, right now, it even more irritating to me than a tit-for-tat pissing contest about the Yankees.
But since I’m here already: I am not thin-skinned about this shit, I do not care how many people hate the Yankees, I disagree that Yankee DS’es are “worse” than (your team here)’s DS’es are (a douche is a douche). I was not looking for a win for George. You miss my point about the military (i.e. it was a fucking joke).
I get it; the Yankees apparently have a few more sheckels to throw at talent than the rest of the teams. You’ve said it yourself: NY is a big market. Fair, no. My hometown team, yes. Until they change the system, my advice, as always, is to fucking get over it, John. Alternately, you could simply take pride in your Royals and Orioles jacket collection. You’re making a statement.
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